Is Jesus God?
My understanding is that Jesus = God --> atonement.
Of course that makes nonsense of the verse "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." 1 John 4:14. and you need to explain all the verses in which Jesus refers to God or addresses God as a distinct person—the "why hast thou forsaken me" uttered on the cross, etc.
Jesus seems to see Himself as from and of God and of course the writers of the Epistles identified Him as God.. In John 10:30, Jesus says, “I and my Father are one” and in John 14:9, He says, “he that hast seen me hath seen the Father.” I’m not sure that this is a ringing claim of His godhood. Was Jesus claiming that he was God or that he was one with God, as suggested in this familiar hymn?
We are One in The Spirit,
We are One in The Lord,
We are One in The Spirit,
We are One in The Lord.
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored,
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.
But to address your objection, it is true that the Bible speaks of Jesus sitting on the right hand of God and asking Him that God's will be done, as in Matthew 26:39: “O, my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” When Jesus was talking to “my Father,” was he talking to another person who was distinct from him or to himself, much as we do when we have an interior dialogue? My thinking is that it is latter. To put it in other words, God as logos was incarnated into human form to atone for the sin's of humanity-- not as Mel Gibson seems to suggest in his movie through physical pain-- but through the spiritual pain of separation from who He once was. The word "son" refers to this phase of humilitiy of obedience to his own divine mandate, not a biological title or a indication of personhood separate from God. I see no evidence that the Holy Spirit has personhood. We talk about the "pleasant" sunshine or the "angry" sea. These are metaphors-- images of something we're trying to describe. The Holy Spirit is one and the same with the incarnated and resurrected Jesus. The "Comforter" of John 14:10 is not a person but our faith that "Jesus is the Christ...the same yesterday, today, and forever." I also find it curious and perhaps compelling that the apostle Paul began each of his epistles without referencing the Holy Spirit, a strange omission if the Holy Spirit was indeed a person of the godhead:
Romans 1:1, 7-9: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all…”
I Corinthians 1:1, 3: “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
II Corinthians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God…Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Galatians 1:1, 3: “Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)…Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Ephesians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at …Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”
Philippians 1:1-2: “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus, which are at Phillipi…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Colossians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
I Thessalonians 1:1: Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians… Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
II Thessalonians 1:1-2: Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians… Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philemon 1:1, 3: “Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer…Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Titus 1:1, 4: “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness…To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”
It's clear to me that Jesus in referring to Himself is rarely straightforward, sometimes refering to himself as the son of man and at other times to the son of God and on occasion dodging a direct answer or rephrasing it into another rhetorical question. This is a good example:
"And how do you explain Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God ? Again, this verse draws a clear distinction between Jesus and God."
On the face of it, Jesus is not merely drawing a distinction, but claiming that He is the very antithesis of a core quality that is God. In discussions of theodicy, for example, some make the claim that the essential nature of God is one of transcendent mystery: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:9) . But time and again, the Bible makes it clear that God is good, not just good as a quality that we cannot perceive, but a quality that we can perceive. That we perceive God to be good but when He is actually evil or that we perceive God to be evil when he is actually good is incomprehensible, and, I believe, false. It would negate even our ability to perceive and interpret any kind of good, much less God’s goodness, including the death and resurrection of His Son. My best guess is that Jesus-God had perceived the insincerity of his interrogators were just toying with them. He wasn't describing Himself as either evil or distinct from God.
Of course that makes nonsense of the verse "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." 1 John 4:14. and you need to explain all the verses in which Jesus refers to God or addresses God as a distinct person—the "why hast thou forsaken me" uttered on the cross, etc.
Jesus seems to see Himself as from and of God and of course the writers of the Epistles identified Him as God.. In John 10:30, Jesus says, “I and my Father are one” and in John 14:9, He says, “he that hast seen me hath seen the Father.” I’m not sure that this is a ringing claim of His godhood. Was Jesus claiming that he was God or that he was one with God, as suggested in this familiar hymn?
We are One in The Spirit,
We are One in The Lord,
We are One in The Spirit,
We are One in The Lord.
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored,
And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.
But to address your objection, it is true that the Bible speaks of Jesus sitting on the right hand of God and asking Him that God's will be done, as in Matthew 26:39: “O, my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” When Jesus was talking to “my Father,” was he talking to another person who was distinct from him or to himself, much as we do when we have an interior dialogue? My thinking is that it is latter. To put it in other words, God as logos was incarnated into human form to atone for the sin's of humanity-- not as Mel Gibson seems to suggest in his movie through physical pain-- but through the spiritual pain of separation from who He once was. The word "son" refers to this phase of humilitiy of obedience to his own divine mandate, not a biological title or a indication of personhood separate from God. I see no evidence that the Holy Spirit has personhood. We talk about the "pleasant" sunshine or the "angry" sea. These are metaphors-- images of something we're trying to describe. The Holy Spirit is one and the same with the incarnated and resurrected Jesus. The "Comforter" of John 14:10 is not a person but our faith that "Jesus is the Christ...the same yesterday, today, and forever." I also find it curious and perhaps compelling that the apostle Paul began each of his epistles without referencing the Holy Spirit, a strange omission if the Holy Spirit was indeed a person of the godhead:
Romans 1:1, 7-9: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all…”
I Corinthians 1:1, 3: “Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
II Corinthians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God…Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Galatians 1:1, 3: “Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead)…Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Ephesians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at …Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”
Philippians 1:1-2: “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus, which are at Phillipi…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Colossians 1:1-3: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God…Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
I Thessalonians 1:1: Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians… Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
II Thessalonians 1:1-2: Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians… Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philemon 1:1, 3: “Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer…Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Titus 1:1, 4: “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness…To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”
It's clear to me that Jesus in referring to Himself is rarely straightforward, sometimes refering to himself as the son of man and at other times to the son of God and on occasion dodging a direct answer or rephrasing it into another rhetorical question. This is a good example:
"And how do you explain Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God ? Again, this verse draws a clear distinction between Jesus and God."
On the face of it, Jesus is not merely drawing a distinction, but claiming that He is the very antithesis of a core quality that is God. In discussions of theodicy, for example, some make the claim that the essential nature of God is one of transcendent mystery: "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Is 55:9) . But time and again, the Bible makes it clear that God is good, not just good as a quality that we cannot perceive, but a quality that we can perceive. That we perceive God to be good but when He is actually evil or that we perceive God to be evil when he is actually good is incomprehensible, and, I believe, false. It would negate even our ability to perceive and interpret any kind of good, much less God’s goodness, including the death and resurrection of His Son. My best guess is that Jesus-God had perceived the insincerity of his interrogators were just toying with them. He wasn't describing Himself as either evil or distinct from God.
Labels: theology
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